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The Teacher-less writing classroom?


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               While reading the various articles by Peter Elbow and David Bartholomae I have been introduced to many ideas that I have never thought of before. In my experience with writing classes, I have learned various styles of writing and then was required to produce whatever style for my teacher. My grade was often based on grammar, organization as well as many other criteria. For the most part, the writing processes in my classes have been as follows: come up with a topic, outline, draft, and final copy. There have been a few exceptions and variations but all included teacher supervision. Some of Elbow's concepts seem to be a good idea in the writing classroom such as free writing and writing for oneself. I have used some of these ideas in some of my writing process just in the last few weeks and in some of my writing over the years without even realizing it. Although some of Elbow's techniques may be useful in the writing classroom, the idea that the classroom should be teacher-less is impossible to achieve. Furthermore, his concept of being able to write as oneself without the outside influence being part of that personal self is impossible.


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            Elbow states in his work, Writing Without Teachers, "It is possible to be a student and not have a teacher. If the student's function is to learn and teacher's to teach, then the student can function without a teacher, but the teacher cannot function without a student. (ix)" This is only true if the definition of a teacher is a person who talks at a class for an hour while the students vigorously take notes and then grades their papers and judges whether or not their writing is "good." I think a teacher is more than that; I would also argue that a teacher does not even have to be the person who critiques the work of the student.


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            I would define teachers as people who take the knowledge they have learned, the techniques that work best for them, etc. and pass it on to another (the students) so that students may use it to help them with their writing. So if this is the case, then the student's job to learn is always from a teacher even when it is not directly from a human grading the work and directing them in the best way to write. The student's "teacher" could come from a book called, "How To Write Like an Academic."  The teacher is the author; the student most likely will not know the teacher; the teacher may not even be alive. In my English 123 class the required text was the Bedford Researcher. Supposedly this handbook had all we needed to write an accurate, well written research paper complete with accurate citations with credible sources. In this sense the book could almost replace the students' teacher and the students could have been just as successful; the book could have been the teacher.


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            The same concept could be applied to a student learning to write by imitating a famous writer. Suppose a student takes David Willbern's work and imitates that, uses a similar argument structure. Willbern would in a sense be the teacher. The only difference is Willbern does not know that he is teaching somebody something. However, even if it is not the intention to teach somebody something through writing, ideas are expressed, opinions are stated and those opinions and ideas may be used through another's work.


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            A student can also learn from another student. In the collegiate level especially, every student comes from different back rounds so some may be better educated in writing than others. Perhaps a student gets help from another student through just proofreading a paper or brainstorming ideas. Is the student helping being the teacher? Some of the most significant things I have learned in some of my writing classes have been from my peers. When I have been given help from another student whether it be proofreading something or helping me rework a paragraph, am I not learning something from them; are they not teaching me something they know that I may not have known? I am actually learning something from the person critiquing or make suggestions to improve this work. That person, whether it is another student or the teacher, is teaching me something.


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                        Furthermore, the writing classroom can never be teacher-less because the student is always producing their writing from an outside source. Bartholomae states in his work Writing With Teachers that "Students write in a space defined by all the writing that has preceded them, writing the academy insistently draws together: in the library, in the reading list, in the curriculum. (64)" His point is that all writing is influenced by someone or something; every writer produces work from previous elements in their life. Just in writing this paper I look back to what others have said and to my past experiences. I could not write this paper if I did not have the back round information and experiences to help me.


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            Looking back to the "How to Write Like an Academic" scenario, suppose that this author is the teacher figure. The influence from the outside still comes from the possible topics in this book because the student is assuming that the instructions on how to write is the best way to write and the results will in theory be good writing and acceptable writing topics. There have been many times that I write in order to impress my teacher because they have a certain opinion or they teach a certain way of what acceptable writing is.

            So there can never be a teacher-less classroom nor can a student write solely from within themselves without having the outside come through their writing. There is too much influence and diversity in the classroom for students to just teach themselves to write without some kind of teacher whether it be an author, one of their peers or a teacher standing in front of the classroom and then to write from within and everything else being on the outside cannot work because many of these outside influences make up what a person is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bibliography

Bartholomae, David. Writing With Teachers: A Conversation with Peter Elbow. 1995.

Elbow, Peter. Writing Without Teachers. Oxford University Press. London.

 

 

Posted by illaria on September 14, 2008
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Total comments on this page: 43

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Monte on paragraph 1:

I couldn’t agree more with your concluding sentence. I fully agree that a person’s social make up is a conglomeration of pieces and parts gathered along the way.

September 15, 2008 11:42 am
Monte on paragraph 3:

Replacing the teacher with textbooks is an option I’m also addressing in my paper, and I feel strongly that most classes can be replaced by a book and strong motivation.

September 15, 2008 11:46 am
Monte on whole page :

Hilary,
I think you’ve done a great job mapping out this paper and systematically proving your points. It made your point clear and was easier to read and understand than an unorganized piece. If I can, I just have one question in addition to comments above. Since it seems you are relating to Bartholomae more than Elbow, do you think he would argue that you cannot argue personal experience within a paper without being established as an expert? I think it is more Elbowian to challenge that rule.
Monte

September 15, 2008 11:54 am
Mateja on paragraph 3:

I liked how you defined a teacher and laid out your main point. For clarification purposes I would suggest putting an explanation in the definition that a “teacher” can be something more than a person, ie- you said a book, or some other tutorial.

September 15, 2008 12:48 pm
Mateja on paragraph 7:

The last few sentences of this paragraph seem to be shedding a negative light on teachers, which I do not think your paper’s intentions were.

September 15, 2008 12:55 pm
mjanel02 on paragraph 2:

You do a really good job of explaining what Elbow feels a teacher is but then you kind of leave the reader hanging wondering what you feel a teacher is.

September 15, 2008 2:04 pm
mjanel02 on paragraph 3:

NM my last comment as you do explain your idea of a teacher in this paragraph. Sorry.

September 15, 2008 2:05 pm
mjanel02 on whole page :

Hilary – I really like your essay. You do a great job of showing the reader the different possibilities for a teacher. I really enjoyed the insight you gave me on the concept of a teacher. A suggestion of mine would be to put some additional personal experiences into the essay.
Thanks very much for sharing your paper with me.
Best,
Melissa L.

September 15, 2008 2:11 pm
bvaldez1988 on paragraph 1:

I really like how you put in some of your own personal experience, because alot of people can relate to the experience of writing papers for class.

September 16, 2008 7:21 am
bvaldez1988 on paragraph 6:

I like how you keep on building your argument by giving different examples of who can be teachers, however, in the last sentence it might help if you expand on the background information and experiences you have received in order to keep the connection with your audience.

September 16, 2008 7:26 am
bvaldez1988 on whole page :

Hillary,
This essay was easy to read and concise. I like how you expressed your thoughts clearly and that I didn’t have to work through any ambiguity or anything like that. The only thing I would add is to put some more of your personal experiences. I believe it keeps the connection with the reader and it makes it a relatable paper.
Thanks for sharing your paper with me.
Beatriz V

September 16, 2008 7:29 am
Lindsey Y on whole page :

Hilary,

I enjoyed reading your paper especially in the beginning where you were able to share with the reader your own experiences of writing in various classroom settings. I liked the transitions that occured from one paragraph to another, bringing a sense of flow and connection from one idea to another.

Lindsey Y

September 16, 2008 8:59 am
arcite on whole page :

Hilary,
The thing that I liked the most was your use of teachers and how even a book is indirectly labeled as a teacher. It brings a fresh view of a timeless argument. My question is what happens when you put isolate a student from the classroom setting and tell them to write? Is it then possible to obtain a teacher-less classroom?

-Dan

September 16, 2008 9:52 am
Mitchell Woll on paragraph 2:

Hilary -
In the middle of your paragraph you write:
“This is only true if the definition of a teacher is a person who talks at a class for an hour while the students vigorously take notes and then grades their papers and judges whether or not their writing is “good.”"
I understand your point, but the sentence reads like the students are the ones grading their own papers and judge whether its good. Consider maybe breaking up this single sentence into two sentences. Or, I think it could be as simple as putting a comma before “while” and after “notes.” It’s up to you though.
- Mitchell
mitchellwoll@hotmail.com

September 16, 2008 11:33 am
Mitchell Woll on paragraph 4:

Good point. Actually, it’s required of me in my END 303 class to try to imitate a writer for an assignment. So, not only do I have a teacher in class, but several in different texts.

September 16, 2008 11:35 am
Mitchell Woll on paragraph 8:

Hilary -
Good conclusion. I guess what I might add is that you take Barth’s side, especially when you say, “then to write from within and everything else being on the outside cannot work because many of these outside influences make up what a person is.”
- Mitchell
mitchellwolL@hotmail.com

September 16, 2008 11:39 am
Mitchell WOll on whole page :

Hilary -
This is a very accessable read. You are clear and concise, and you don’t get too wordy. I think it’s interesting how you take that Elbowian style yet sort of prove Barth’s point. It’s already been said, but add a bit more persoanl experience. As I read this I get more interested in what you have to say about what Elbow and Barth say, than what Elbow and Barth actually say… If that makes any sense.
Thanks for sharing your paper with me,
Mitchell
mitchellwoll@hotmail.com

September 16, 2008 11:49 am
stra6907 on whole page :

Hillary,
I really enjoyed your paper because it is very concise and organized. I particularly enjoyed that you brought students being peer teachers. I would suggest making it a little more personal so that you are able to connect to the reader.
Thanks for sharing,
Kate

September 16, 2008 12:43 pm
stra6907 on paragraph 3:

I really like that you address the fact that is a students’ job to help in the learning process.

September 16, 2008 12:49 pm
Jamie on paragraph 5:

I like this paragraph, however I am unsure about the usage of the two seperate words ‘back’ and ’rounds’.

September 16, 2008 1:24 pm
Jamie on paragraph 8:

Nice conclusion, however, perhaps consider breaking up the last sentence into multiple ones to continue the flow.

September 16, 2008 1:27 pm
Jamie on whole page :

Hilary,
I really enjoyed reading this paper! It had a good even distribution of voice and an overall academic feel about it. You supported your arguement well and I could tell that you were very knowledgable about your subject. I was distracted sometimes by the longer sentences but overall I found this to be a very well written paper. Thank you for sharing it with me!
Good job,
Jamie

September 16, 2008 1:32 pm
holt8617 on whole page :

Hilary,
I think the argument you’ve made is really intelligent. It was easy to get a good feel of your voice in this essay. Your arguments all seem strong and you make several good points with reference to and quotations from several key points. Overall, it was really great.

-John H.

September 16, 2008 1:41 pm
zwic7726 on whole page :

Hillary,
I am interested in how you think of teachers as being everyone and everywhere. I appreciate someone mentioning that. Some of the sentences are very long and become laborious to read. The conciseness of your paper makes it a little too quick of a read, and I want more.
Thank you for sharing your article with us.
Good luck with the final,
Gerrek

September 16, 2008 2:36 pm
zwic7726 on paragraph 3:

As I read the article I was under the impression that Elbow means that a teacher is a person of some authority that needs to bring themself down to the level of the students with their work, but upon the second read, your argument is aided by your definition of teachers. This is a good paragraph.

September 16, 2008 2:39 pm
nugewriter16 on paragraph 2:

Maybe make a split between “whether or not their writing is “good”" and “I think teacher is more important than that”. It would flow much better.

September 16, 2008 2:45 pm
zwic7726 on paragraph 5:

That is a very important passage in your argument, and I feel if this were expanded, it would only help your position. This gives your article a good twist and addresses Elbow indirectly.

September 16, 2008 2:46 pm
nugewriter16 on whole page :

Hilary-
This was an excellent paper with a great use of voice and personal experience. I really enjoyed the way you took what Elbow was saying in his text and relating it to the everyday classroom. However, since at the beginning of your paper you bring up both sides of the argument (Elbow and Bartholomae), I feel that you need to include both of their opinions in the essay, or make it seem more that you are leaning towards Elbow than Bartholomae. The reader doesn’t find out later what you really are going for.
I really enjoyed your paper and I look forward to reading more!!!
Great job!
Kristin
nuge5901@bears.unco.edu

September 16, 2008 2:51 pm
Helen D. on whole page :

Hilary,
I really liked your paper. I loved hearing about your personal experiences in your past writing courses during your introduction, because I could really relate to them. I could see your voice fading slightly when you became more in depth with your subject, but overall it was a great paper!
-Helen

September 16, 2008 2:53 pm
khac2072 on whole page :

Hilary,

This paper shows that you really understood the debate between the two about the essence of individuality and whether it can exist outside of influence. Your paper does the job breaking down Elbow’s assumptions about teachers and also lays out a good refutation of the idea that there is a self that exists beyond the past and influences of a person. My biggest suggestion though is to tell us your position on the style of writing Barth actually champions. You do a good job of dismantling Elbow’s teacherless classroom idea, but you should replace his thoughts concretely with the theory you find to be superior instead of just focusing on refutation.

-Vartan

September 16, 2008 3:09 pm
khac2072 on paragraph 4:

This is a perfect example of how it is impossible to live without teachers if you define them in a nontraditional way. I would also expand on this idea of the usefulness of imitating other writers.

September 16, 2008 3:10 pm
victoria on paragraph 1:

In this paragraph you focus a lot on Elbow. In order to provide an equal argument perhaps Bartholomae’s views should be outlined? I think you did a good job with this with Elbow and then bought in a personal reference to your own writing.

September 16, 2008 3:50 pm
victoria on paragraph 3:

I like this paragraph because it brings in the question of the usefulness of the teacher, comparing the Bedford Researcher to your definition of teacher.

September 16, 2008 3:53 pm
victoria on whole page :

Hilary,
Overall I liked your essay and how it contained aspects of both Bartholomae and Elbow. All in all, I thought your points made sense and you followed up your arguments with explanations well.
Thanks for sharing,
-Victoria

September 16, 2008 3:57 pm
Lindsay on paragraph 1:

I agree that teacher-less writing is a hard concept to have in the classroom. However, I think that the teacher could be less present in the class room but still be able to guide the students writing.

September 16, 2008 4:01 pm
chibihi on whole page :

Hilary,
This paper was really interesting. I liked how you wrote that a book could be the teacher instead of an actual person. I think that the first paragraph is a bit lengthy and it took some time to get through it. it could be a bit shorter or split apart so it is not so long, otherwise it is a good essay. Thank you for letting me read this essay.
Chantelle

September 16, 2008 4:16 pm
Lindsay on paragraph 3:

I feel like a teacher in a writing class is necessary to help the students with their work as they progress in the paper. I do like the idea however, about having a book do most of the work.

September 16, 2008 4:38 pm
Lindsay on paragraph 4:

I completely agree with this. I think that a lot of us imitate famous writers works or way of writing whether we know it or not.

September 16, 2008 4:41 pm
Lindsay on paragraph 6:

I agree with the comment above. Maybe try and expand on the background that you have with writing.

September 16, 2008 4:47 pm
Lindsay on paragraph 7:

I would rethink the last sentence. It is a negative insight on teachers and I don’t think thats the way tou wanted to go with the paper/.

September 16, 2008 4:52 pm
dra08 on whole page :

test post

September 18, 2008 11:18 am
Amanda on whole page :

Hilary,
Your paper is very good. Rock solid with concepts from Bartholome and Elbow. But if i could make one suggestion it would be to pull more experience into your paper. Show when a teacher helped you out (it will show why we need them), or any other experiences you can think of! But your essay is still wonderful as is!
Amanda

September 18, 2008 7:38 pm
from Jeremy on whole page :

Hilary your paper was awesome, I was kind of in a hurry to finish reading it, and before I started reading I told myself, “oh Ill just read a few paragraphs and comment on those.” But when I began to read your paper I threw my previous plan out the window because I was hooked and I had to read the whole thing. Anyway I thought the whole paper was solid, but I especially liked the part where you said a teacher is not necessarily the one who grades the papers. This is really a monumental truth that you uncovered! I also liked your reference to Bartholomae and how all writing is in the context of other writing, which means that all writing has been influenced/taught.

September 23, 2008 2:02 pm
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